Roadbed and Track laying

[obwan]

Hi all!
I'm a newbie who has been inspired to build a 7.5" gage railroad in my backyard, and I'm having some trouble finding the right info.

I like the track panels idea on the IPRR site, but does anyone know of a good tutorial on building the roadbed? (What kind of fill/gravel/how tightly packed must it be/etc)?

In addition, what kind of software do I need to generate templates for the track panels on my computer? Does somebody sell standard templates?

Thanks in advance for any help here!

[pockets]

Obwan,
Check this out, particularly the Buckingham Central

forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=LiveSteam

The major poster, Pappasmurf, has forgotten more about this topic than most of us will ever know and he's a willing teacher.

Greg B.

[obwan]

Thanks very much pockets!

That's exactly what I was looking for. I also got smart and ordered a copy of "Civil Engineering for Outdoor Railroads" which sounds like it will help a lot too.

I have a swampy section near the back of the yard where I've always thought there should be a pond - looks like I'll get my pond by digging out the clay soil to build my roadbed!

This is gonna take some work...

[pockets]

"This is gonna take some work..."

My friend, you have no clue. Welcome to Large Scale Live Steam.

Greg B.

[obwan]

How do I make templates for 7.5" track panels?

I've looked at the excellent image on the Island Pons RR site ( iprr.topcities.com ), but the image file there is not full sized. How can I create and print these? I know that it's not too hard to lay one out for straight sections, but how do you do it for the curved sections? Is there a formula for laying out the ties?

Or, is there a company out there who makes pre-printed (maybe laminated) templates?

I have to squeeze my track layout into just over 2 acres, and the shape of my yard will allow only 30 and 40 foot radius curves. I know that this is tight, but I understand that some people have made them as small as 20' radius. I like smaller cars anyway - but am I going to have a problem with 4 wheeled cars, like a bobber caboose or old european freight cars? Am I correct in assuming that these might have problems on tight radius curves due to the distance between the axles, or does a modern 4 wheel truch have more problems?

(have I asked too many questions yet?)

[pockets]

At the Largo Central we use 2x4s for ties, on edge. We build all panels straight and just curve them as we put them in the ground. We use West Coast profile rail and it is plenty flexible enough to curve. If it wont bend, your track screws are too tight. That rail has to be able to expand and contract without ripping the ties out of the ground.

Our jigs are made of 2x4s and look like a piano keyboard with every other key missing. There are guide blocks to locate the first rail and gauges locate the second one. Experience will teach you how much to stagger the rail ends so that you minimize waste of expensive rail.

Long ridgid wheelbases and tight curves can be problematic. However, the rule of thumb that I hear most is three times the track gauge = max wheelbase on a four wheel car. In 1.5" scale, this shoulden't be a serious issue. Now, 3-3/4" scale is a horse of another shade!

It is impossible to ask too many questions. It is possible, however, to ask too few. Your biggest difficulty is selecting the answer that works, for you.....

Greg B.

[obwan]

Thanks Greg, your advice is very helpful.

I live in an area (Near Buffalo, New York) where frost heave in the winter is an issue, so I was thinking that the use of stringers on the track panels as suggested by Bill Gardei on the IPRR site was a good idea, but I like the thought of having giant sections of "flex track" as you seem to do down there. It seems that it would make life a lot easier, and allow greater room for error.

I wonder if I couldn't use your method, but lay the stringers in the ballast and screw the ties to them after I get the track in place.

Is there anyone out there who lives in these northern climbs where frost is an issue? What has been your experience? Is frost heave as much of an issue as I expect it to be, or am I being paranoid?

Robert

[obwan]

hmmm... if you build your track panels on a jig, what do you do about the increase in gage through a curve?

My guess is that you start a section with the straight line gage, then increase over a couple of feet to the gage of the curve - then when you lay the panel in the roadbed and curve it, the gage should be right through the curve. Is this how you guys do it, or do you make the panel with only one rail and set the other in place after the panel is laid and leveled in the curve?

[pockets]

Obwan,
I'm from Michigan. The frost is going to move your track, just like temperature differential will. All the stringers in the world won't stop it. They may help, but I'm skeptical. Plus, when they rot out, you will have a large cavity in your roadbed. A proper, operating railroad, in any scale, requires maintenance. From N scale to the prototype, you're gonna do periodic trackwork. Dig your trench and fill it with 3/4"-1" crushed stone. Tamp the daylights out of it and keep adding stone until it's well tamped and level with the sub-grade. Position your panels and fill in with 1/2" crushed stone. Tamp, level, tamp, fill, tamp, level, tamp, fill. Don't forget the ballast shoulders, either. After a few rains, this whole thing will need tweaking. Your track will stabilize and only need occasional tuning after that. One of the keys is good drainage. That's why the large stone, underneath.

As for wider gauge, we lay all tangent track and large radius curves to 7-9/16" and build the panels in the jig. We have used the one rail method for tight curves, but as we get older, we try to avoid it!

Greg B.

[obwan]

As I was looking for sources of track, I found tie plates in the catalog of Cannonball Ltd's site.

I have not seen these mentioned in the sites of any of the live steam clubs I have found - why do they sell them and what are the advantages/disadvantages of using them?

From a note on Bill Gardieu's site I see that the chemicals in pressure treated lumber might react with the aluminum rail - are the tie plates a way of counteracting that reaction?

He says that he just painted the rails with primer to make them more protypical looking - is this enough to protect them from the reaction with the pressure treated wood?

Is the problem big enough to warrant the expense of installing tie plates?

I know I have a lot of questions, and I thank you much for the time you have spent answering me - but I've always said the the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask...

[pockets]

I've been advocating the use of tie plates, from a purely mechanical point of view, since day one. Your wheels are tapered or coned. The tie plate angles the rail completing the geometry.
Kadee, RMI and, apparently, Cannonball market them, but for some reason ($$$) most Live Steamers don't use them.

Yes, the rail corrodes. Treated tie (usually salt content) + rail of one metal + screws of another + moisture = electrolytic reaction (battery). Paint will, at best, be a temporary fix and tie plates just add an additional alloy to the mix unless they are some kind of plastic. Then you have another set of variables. Having said all of that, just recently the last of the 1994 rail was replaced and there was significant corrosion, but that wasn't the reason for replacement. It was just worn out. This track sees an unbelievable amount of traffic and a lot of heavy equipment.

I just remembered something. Contact Pappasmurf, over at the Buckingham Central, for his views on guard rails. This guy has some ideas that have stood the test of time and should be considered by anyone building track. Tell him I sent you. Bruce is a heck of a guy and a good teacher.

Greg B.

[obwan]

Thanks Pockets -

I've been in touch with papasmurf via e-mail and he's given me some great advice.

I also discovered that there is a live steam club a couple of hours drive from here and they are having a meet on September 23rd & 24th. (The Finger Lakes Live Steamers) and I'm going to go there and drool on their track and see if I can't get one of the members to chew the fat with me about it for a while. Their website is www.fingerlakeslivesteamers.org/

Thanks again for your advice, and I'm sure I'll be checking in for more at some point!.

Robert

[pockets]

Robert,
I'm glad I could point you in the right direction.

You're welcome,
Greg B

[Bill Holland]

I was a member of the Finger Lakes Live Steamers. It is a nice club, make sure you talk to Harold Crouch, he is the old guy who can barely hear. He loves to tell stories about the old steamers on the NY Central he worked on. Ask him about the time he was on the front of a Niagra reading a test box at full speed down the track.