Do operations exist?

[locodan5416]

well i wish we could have running polls going, or maybe i dont have the privelages to do that, but with everyone here building/discussing track, heres a question.
does operations matter in the larger scales or should we just run in loops. do i need to go back to the smaller scales like HO?
also, steel or aluminum rail?

~dan

[William Gardei]

Dan:

Yes they do. But it is up to you whether you want them are not.
Some days I just run trains. Other days I run a ballast extra or
work trains to regrade parts of the line. Other operations include
work trains to move or remove fallen timber, or move fill to a new
line extension.

Steel rail will last longer, rust, have slightly less traction, will weigh
a lot more, and will be harder on cast iron and aluminum wheels.
Aluminum is easier to bend, lighter, but easier on wheels. For clubs
you can go either way. For home use, aluminum is best. Avoid
so called "groovy track" at all costs.

Bill

[andy pullen]

Hi Bill,

Why do you say steel is slipperier? I have steel tires on my steamer and steel wheels on all my rolling stock.

And, what's wron with Groovy track? I haven't built any track, yet and I was considering it....

As to operations; you can build either a simple loop or a complex design like I've seen some guys do. A loop is good for hauling people.

I'm seriously thinking about using steel rail when I build my railroad. I've seen the wear and tear on 2 good sized railroads built with aluminum over the last 20 or so years.

Andy Pullen

[William Gardei]

Andy:

Traction is related to contact area. A wheel tread
being a circle and a rail being a tangent, the contact
distance would be zero IF neither the wheel nor the
rail would compress.

But in reality, they do compress, even if ever so
slightly, so the contact area is in fact not zero.
Aluminum compresses more under the same load
than steel, increasing the contact area and traction.
This was explained to me many years ago by Chet
Peterson of the original Railroad Supply Company
(not what it is today.)

Now there's more than one alloy of aluminum. Clubs
using 6067-T7 will experience a lot of wear sooner than
those with 6061-T6. So be aware of what you buy.
Clubs get enough use to know about wear. For home
use, it will probably never be an issue.

Groovy track just plain looks bad. You can't dynamically
set the gauge. Traction is poor due to lack of contact
area, and wheel wear is significant on anything but steel
wheels. Plus it is heavy. Just log on to Union Pacific or
BNSF's websites and see if they use groovy track.

Bill

[BruceMowbray]

Dan,
You could start off simple and add to your layout as time and money permit. The first thing to add would be a passing siding. With that alone, two way operation is a possibility. Add a siding or two and some small makeshift buildings and you have a place to set out or retrieve cars. You could also add a track crossing with a "Y" and now you can interchange with another railroad (with a little imagination). Add a "fast clock" (used in small scale operating sessions) and you could run with tiimetable rules like the big guys do.

As far as track goes. I like aluminum rail. It's easy to work with and the wear on my home railroad is nil. Good track geometry will greatly reduce rail wear just as it does in the prototype world. Bank your curves, use spirals and make nice even radii and you will not only reduce wear, you will be able to run without worring about derailments.

Bruce Mowbray

[Doug E]

Guest-William said:

Andy:

Traction is related to contact area. A wheel tread
being a circle and a rail being a tangent, the contact
distance would be zero IF neither the wheel nor the
rail would compress.

But in reality, they do compress, even if ever so
slightly, so the contact area is in fact not zero.
Aluminum compresses more under the same load
than steel, increasing the contact area and traction.
This was explained to me many years ago by Chet
Peterson of the original Railroad Supply Company
(not what it is today.)

Now there's more than one alloy of aluminum. Clubs
using 6067-T7 will experience a lot of wear sooner than
those with 6061-T6. So be aware of what you buy.
Clubs get enough use to know about wear. For home
use, it will probably never be an issue.

Groovy track just plain looks bad. You can't dynamically
set the gauge. Traction is poor due to lack of contact
area, and wheel wear is significant on anything but steel
wheels. Plus it is heavy. Just log on to Union Pacific or
BNSF's websites and see if they use groovy track.

Bill

Bill,

I can not agree with some of your comments, especially
that steel is slipperyer. The PNWLS use steel flat bar
forced into grooves cut in the ties, but with a section of
aluminum rail "for looks" in a prominant spot on a grade.
The loaded trains could make a curve at the bottom of
the grade, but would lose traction when they hit the
section of aluminum. The aluminum was finally replaced
with steel to get rid of the problem.

My biggest complaint against aluminum is the much higher
coeffient of expansion. The aluminum track moves much
more and requires more maintanace because of this.

The late Bill McCready had 6000 actual miles on his
consol, which used cast iron wheels on the steel flat
bar rail at PNWLS. He finally put steel tires on the
drivers, not that he needed to, but that he felt he
best do it when he was able rather than need to when
he was older. Bill had the drivers cast, and did not use
the cheapest iron. He had them cast in a good grade
of Mehanite. Much of the iron being sold by suppliers is
soft and will wear on steel rail, but leadloy steel will too!
Use good iron or add steel tires.

Steel tires on steel rail beats anything I have seen on
aluminum for traction, if adheasion on the home rr is that
important.

The full sized RR's use rail rather than flat bar as they get
more yards of rail per pound than some sort of flat bar. If
it was cheaper to use flat bar, you can bet they would. In
our case, the flat bar is cheaper.

My preferance for rail would be steel rail. Unless I find
some cheap, I intend to use steel bar. My last choice
would be aluminum because of the expansion.

Doug

[Carl Helquist]

Coefficients of Friction
	static	kinetic
alumimum/steel	.61	.47
steel/steel	.74	.57
source:
frictioncenter.siu.edu/databaseSearch.html

[Makinsmoke]

The Comanche & Indian Gap Railroad in Comanche, Texas was the first place I ever operated with timetables and scheduled trains and I have been a modeler for many years.

It kicked me into overdrive to convince all those around me to build and set up their railroads no matter what gauge to allow oprations.

[GoldenSpike53]

Hi, Dan.

A couple of notes to make on your questions.

I've posted this in another thread, but one thing to consider about aluminum rail is its salvage value. We've had vandals come in and rip up our aluminum rail track, presumably for salvage, so the club has been replacing it with steel rail. They have been using plastic ties for the replacement work. We received a donation of a large amount of 2 x 6 plastic lumber, mostly selvage ends that were anywhere from 16" to maybe 3-1/2 feet, and we ripped those into 2 x w strips and cut to length for ties. They have been working really well. Lately its been hard to keep up with the wooden ties that have rotted out because we've had an exceptionally wet season.

As an individual, you probably won't run into someone who will donate plastic wood to you, but you could check with your parks department to see if they might be using plastic on park benches and have selvages left over that they are just throwing out. You never know....

Dale

[Makinsmoke]

Dan,
Twice a year the Comanche and Indian Gap has operating sessions with scheduled passenger timetables, scheduled and unscheduled freights, radio communications, a tower dispatcher, and bi directional operations. One of the most exciting things I have ever done as a model railroader. The first thing I did after my frist trip there was to come home and figure out how to get operations going in some form or fashion on my HO layout.

At present the HO club here is being dragged/pushed into card card operations by me, and have found so far that it is fun and adds a lot to the railroad!
Go for it!
Brian

[pkastagehand]

I've read this before but I had never done the operations thing and didn't know squat about rail so I kept out of it. I still don't know squat about rail.

I have now done a little bit on the operations side. I don't have a track but there is one about 48 miles from me that I've been to a couple times now. They run just open meets where you can just drive around the track and they run Card Ops.

The card ops are done as close as possible to real railroads. There is a crew working the main yard making up trains. Road crews come in and get assigned a route and the train to go on that route. Train crews then start down the route and do the local switching at the towns on their route. The conductor organizes this so be as efficient as possible. There are "bills of lading" which have to be carried and left when dropping cars and picked up when retrieving cars. If you get back to the yard and one or more of your cards does not match what's in your train, woe to you.

Now, if they are running passenger service at the same time you have to make sure you do not block a passenger train. So the conductor carries the passenger schedule and a radio to listen to see if the passenger train is on time or not. Woe to the conductor who doesn't pay attention and has some cars on the main when the passenger train comes along.

These guys usually run a 3 person crew; engineer, brakeman and conductor.

Now, I don't know anything about how a railroad is run but those that do assure me this is about as real as it gets. Maybe the only thing not "real" is the actual "bills of lading" which mainly give car #s, town, company. No money or product is listed, etc. Or as far as I know dunnage charges, etc. Mainly just the info to get the cars moved to correct locations.

Now, do you need to do this? Depends on who you talk to. I think my approach to the hobby is to have a project to work on in the machine shop. Running trains is OK, sometimes fun, but not my main interest. If your interest is running around a track this just adds a new dimension to just going back and forth or in circles.

Paul