Ed Hume Heisler #9 Article

[phutcheson]

It's here ....

Congratulations Ed ... your Heisler #9 Gauge 1 is on the front cover and is the lead article in the July/Aug 2007 issue of Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading.

I've read it at least 3 time already and marked it where I can use it for my A3. Some 38 nice size photos providing great details (picture worth a thousands words!) ... with lots of narrative. Fantastic article!

My wife really likes your butane burner in photo 28/29 and is expecting to have one for my A3!!

Thanks again and keep up the great work.

Pat H

[Harlock]

I actually got my issue on time for once. (having US mail problems here)

A lot of forethought went in to scaling down the design...a lot of issues! Whew. Glad I didn't try that on a first project. As much as I wanted a 1 1/2" scale loco, even with the chapter on the 1 1/2" scale A3, it's easiest for a beginner to just follow the directions verbatim for the 3/4" scale version.

Amazing project Ed, once again you are at the forefront of improved techniques for building Kozo's engines.

We can't wait to see what's next

I finished tender wheel #3 last night. Things are starting to pick up a bit, although I will be stopping down for a week to install a new motor and VFD for the lathe.

--Mike

[Ed Hume]

Guys,

Thank you for the kind words. It wasn't too long ago we were discussing getting the article published, and I think the call to Clover helped move it up in the queue.

What's next is already in progress. If you have been checking the Yahoo Kozo builder site, you will see I have posted a lot of photos on the Gauge 1 Climax project. (http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Builders_of_Kozos_Engines/photos/browse/4f8d) Today, I am working on the lubricator.

The real mystery is what is after the Gauge 1 Climax. The Robert Maynard Cli-Shay 7.5" starter loco was one of the most popular Live Steam projects ever. Lately, I have been thinking about a larger Class A Climax based on using Kozo technology - two cylinder no-casting Stephenson's valve gear motor based on Kozo's Shay and Heisler designs, vertical or T boiler, coal or DIY propane burner with propane tank in a riding car, skew bevel gears in the trucks. Also, some coordination with supplier's so that the builder could buy key components he did not want to make such as the gears, the boiler, and a machined motor. That way someone in a hurry could make one too. Material kits, and things like sets of springs, and sets of fasteners, would also help the builder, and the hobby suppliers too. If a set of drawings and plans were developed and published, it would secure my place in Live Steam history.

Ed

[Harlock]

Please do post periodically about photo updates if you can. Would be nicer to know when new pictures are posted rather than checking periodically only to find nothing new.

The climax kit idea sounds interesting. You might connect with one of the established sellers to hawk these parts. You definitely don't want to be bogged down running another business or you'll lose lots of time for locomotive building.

You'll also have to consider just how popular that particular locomotive is. Of the three geared loco types, the Shay is by far the king, I'd say the heisler comes in second, and the climax is the least well known. How many kits and plans do you think will sell? (I guess a good indicator is to find out from Kozo how many of each book has sold)

I wonder what Kozo is going to do next, if anything.

--Mike

[Ed Hume]

Mike,

I don't have in mind a kit or getting involved myself as a supplier, but just coordinating information with suppliers and giving them a chance to put together supporting kits, components, etc.

[Harlock]

That would be a fine thing to do.

[doug]

Ed,

I applaud your interest in a Class A Climax. I also consider it a quick locomotive for someone to build with out a massive amount of hours. A Class A done well also has a high degree of visual appeal to my eye, as well as being fairly unique in the hobby today. There is quite a bit of variation of the class over the years of it's manufacture in the boilers, but also some in the trucks, and the frame as well if you consider both the wood and steel frames.

At the request of some livesteamers who have purchased investment cast skew bevel gears from me, I have been working on truck castings for a 2.5" scale narrow gauge Class A Climax. I received the first batch of castings for the journal box and bolster pedestals about a month ago, and am currently waiting for castings for the journal boxes themselves. I am working on the wheel data, and have a few other smaller truck castings to do to finish up the castings for the truck.

I think I figured out the loco to scale about 60" long.

I have passed images of the current castings on to my website guru, and hope to have a url to post here for the images by the end of the week. I have other Climax castings for 1.6" Climax models on my website.

I think you have already carved out a place in livesteam with your info on your Heisler published in the recent live steam. Nice job!

Doug.

hume said:

Guys,



The real mystery is what is after the Gauge 1 Climax. The Robert Maynard Cli-Shay 7.5" starter loco was one of the most popular Live Steam projects ever. Lately, I have been thinking about a larger Class A Climax based on using Kozo technology - two cylinder no-casting Stephenson's valve gear motor based on Kozo's Shay and Heisler designs, vertical or T boiler, coal or DIY propane burner with propane tank in a riding car, skew bevel gears in the trucks. Also, some coordination with supplier's so that the builder could buy key components he did not want to make such as the gears, the boiler, and a machined motor. That way someone in a hurry could make one too. Material kits, and things like sets of springs, and sets of fasteners, would also help the builder, and the hobby suppliers too. If a set of drawings and plans were developed and published, it would secure my place in Live Steam history.

Ed

[doug]

Here is the url for the image of the class A Climax truck castings:

www.precisionlocomotivecastings.com/2_5_Climax_Truck_Parts.html

Doug

[Harlock]

At the request of some livesteamers who have purchased investment cast skew bevel gears from me, I have been working on truck castings for a 2.5" scale narrow gauge Class A Climax. I received the first batch of castings for the journal box and bolster pedestals about a month ago, and am currently waiting for castings for the journal boxes themselves. I am working on the wheel data, and have a few other smaller truck castings to do to finish up the castings for the truck.

I underestimated the demand for Climaxes! (outside the bedroom...)

--Mike

[doug]

harlock said:

At the request of some livesteamers who have purchased investment cast skew bevel gears from me, I have been working on truck castings for a 2.5" scale narrow gauge Class A Climax. I received the first batch of castings for the journal box and bolster pedestals about a month ago, and am currently waiting for castings for the journal boxes themselves. I am working on the wheel data, and have a few other smaller truck castings to do to finish up the castings for the truck.

I underestimated the demand for Climaxes!

--Mike

Mike,

I suspect that the lower interest in Climax locos is partly due to the lower survival rate of the locomotives compared to the competitors, plus the lack of surviving data as compared to the case of the Shay. There also have been few operating Climax locos, but a fair number of Heislers and a more generous amount of Shays. Cass and Roaring camp both have operated Shays and Heislers for years, but neither have yet gotten a Climax running. These are probably the two most visable organizations operating geared engines in the US, and to a degree, people are interested in modeling what they experience.

There appears to be a bit of a surge in interest in the Climax locos since the new Climax book came out a few years ago. The book is full of photos, and finally gives a good pictorial overview of the product line which has not been available before. I suspect with this type of information commonly available, that the interest in the Climax will continue to grow. Keep in mind that the Shay, Heisler, and Willamette books have been out for over 25 years, and those books also sparked interest in the respective locos. The late Ben Kline, publisher of the Heisler book, mentioned there was a very noticable rise in interest of Heislers after the book came out.

For myself personally, I have become much more interested in the Climax loco and Climax Mfg. co. since working on the 1.6" scale Climax model. I have been working on a model of a 70 ton Willamette as well, and have found the Climax design to be much superior to the Willamette/Shay design in the terms of engineering simplicity. The Climax loco was cheaper than the other three, and after working on the models I can see why. It is not that the Climax is an inferior design, it is more that Climax figured out how to push the manufacturing technology of the day to reduce the number of man hours required to build a loco. The Climax trucks, for instance, are much easier to put together than the Willamette trucks, and I expect when I get to the power unit, the difference between the two will be even greater. I have heard that Climax ran a pretty tight ship, with no extra frills, but I also suspect considering that, the ROI for Climax was better than for Lima or Heisler.

I have enjoyed the experience of trying to accurately model the two makes of trucks and going through nearly the same motions that Willamette and Climax did when assembling their trucks 80+ years ago. I think with the modeling of the Willamette truck, I have found out why the truck was redesigned in the late 20's, something I would not have seen had I not gone through the work of making a close model of the prototype.

Regards,

Doug

[Harlock]

I suspect that the lower interest in Climax locos is partly due to the lower survival rate of the locomotives compared to the competitors, plus the lack of surviving data as compared to the case of the Shay. There also have been few operating Climax locos, but a fair number of Heislers and a more generous amount of Shays. Cass and Roaring camp both have operated Shays and Heislers for years, but neither have yet gotten a Climax running. These are probably the two most visable organizations operating geared engines in the US, and to a degree, people are interested in modeling what they experience.

Also the Mt. Rainier Scenic Railway in Washington. www.mrsr.com/

Roaring Camp has a Climax, but at this point, it's become one of those 'replace locomotive under the whistle' restorations. It needs a new frame, tender, cab, truck re-gauging, gears, plumbing, brakes, etc. After 3 heads and 2 handles, is it still grandpa's old axe?

However, according to Jeff Badger, progress is being made towards the Climax restoration with the pending lease of one locomotive and hopefully a sale of the GE centercab. With some room in the backshop area available this would allow the Climax project to get started sometime in the nearer future. Awhile back the conductors spiel included a nugget about the Climax being restored by 2010. I think that's impossible at this point, but I think it will eventually happen, and then they'll have all three major geared types running.

Also sharing the field of dead Climax parts is a 32 ton Shay, a steam motor car, a freight derreck, steam winch motors and more miscellaneous railroad stuff than you can shake a stick at.

--Mike

[Ed Hume]

I think Doug is right about the book creating interest. I believe he is talking about "The Climax Locomotive" by D.B. Thompson et al (Oso Publishing 2002 ($67.95)). There are a lot of old photos of the Class A locos and they certainly have eye appeal to the model engineer. There was considerable variety in boilers and cabins which is interesting too. The Class B climax has the moving valve gear on the outside, so that is mesmerizing to watch.

I think there is a position between the Cli-Shay and Kozo's engines that a Climax Class A project could aim for. Simpler to build than a Kozo engine, especially if you buy the gears, etc.; but still satisfying as a model. It can look good, and be a source of pride to the builder. On the Cli-Shay end of the spectrum, it can fit 7.5" (7.25) track, be light enough to lift and carry, and be an entry to the large scale end of the live steam hobby.

[Harlock]

I agree with the point that it is mechanically much simpler than a Shay, and thus a great beginner's project or faster-completion project. A kit would be great.

--Mike

[doug]

hume said:

I think Doug is right about the book creating interest. I believe he is talking about "The Climax Locomotive" by D.B. Thompson et al (Oso Publishing 2002 ($67.95)).

Thanks Ed,

This is the book I was refering to, but forgot to give the details on. I'm told the initial printing sold out so fast, that they had to do another printing about a year later to fill the demand. The interest was much greater than Oso had expected. I'm told that there may be a follow up book on it, and another author has been collecting data for a book on the mechanical developments that lead up to the final product design in the class C engine that Climax offered at the time they closed the doors.

Regards,

Doug