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Post by phill3006 on May 24, 2004 5:23:16 GMT -5
ironman i just had a look at the photo's it seems you can go alot heavier on the spring as you don't seem to be at fully open on your travel it looks like your springs are already loaded.that how it apears in the photo but i am building the shay so i am unsure about the travel perhaps it maybe an idea to send a drawing to my e-mail on yahoo regards phill3006
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Post by IronMan on May 24, 2004 8:36:06 GMT -5
G'day Phill, Thank you so much for your offer to help but I think I have found the solution to my problem, First off I took Bluechips advice and checked out McMaster-Carr for die springs, there is nothing close to what I need plus it is $$$ I then checked out a few sites and noticed that the arch bar trucks all use round wire compresssion springs, it does go along with the looks. Then I looked at what Patyoung posted on how Kozo describes the spring making for upscaling to 1.5" The wire diameter would have to be about .100 ( 34 Guage ) I think the solution is to fabricate my own using this wire size, in stainless steel. Today being a holliday here, Victoria Day all is closed ( well just the stores you need ! ) I found a supplier that my neighborhood industrial harware store deals with that carries the music wire in question. Plus making the springs goes in with the spirit of making Kozo's designs, plus I imagine some day I will get some OOOH's and AAA's when someone ask if I bought the springs to put on the tender and I reply that I made them, small consolation but hey, you take what you can ! gone are the days when they would be OOOhing and AAAging the Bod !! LOL Have a nice day Mate IronMan
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Post by patyoung on May 24, 2004 15:43:51 GMT -5
Dang Ironman, Rolling .100" thick stainless steel spring wire seem like a pretty 'stud-ly" thing to do. I remember my motorcycle clutch springs were about the size you are planning to manufactoring and man were they strong! I hope you try a smaller gauge wire to see how manageable it is. And please, put every guard and shield when rolling it. It seems pretty scary. Regards, Pat Young
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Post by IronMan on May 24, 2004 17:51:52 GMT -5
Hey Pat,
So you think making springs in stainless steel Music wire .100 is going to be rock and roll? Would the carbon wire be less musical so to speak. Sorry I could not ressist ;D It must be the music in me :PBut it is according to the standards given out by Kozo and the tender once full of water and coal will have to support 200 pounds. If I have to try to figure out the approximate weight of the frame and the tank. Thanks for all your help, it is much appreciated, what were the size of the springs on your clutch do you rmember?
Cheers, IronMan ;D
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Post by patyoung on May 25, 2004 14:33:24 GMT -5
Hi Ironman, My recollection was that the motorcycle clutch spings were 1 1/2" by 3/8" or 1/2" and there were 5 of them. As for your springs, I looked at a couple of custom sping companies and the beefiest wire diameter for .500 x 1.75 was .081 and that had a load rating of >50 lbs. I'm wondering if you can wind a .1 music wire that tight without some sort of metal fatigue failure. Perhaps you could try building a couple of springs using .081 (it would certainly be easier to roll) and see how it compresses. Pat Y.
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Post by IronMan on May 25, 2004 14:43:43 GMT -5
Hello Pat, I ordered the carbon music wire .100 I should recieve it before the week-end, The Stainless steel one was full hard, and full priced too !! Perhaps this week-end I will at least try to make one. I will give you my progress has soon has there is some. I t would appear there is not much options but to make them. If I am successfull I will post pictures with the pround father ;D I will try to iron out the kinks. Cheers, Ironman
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Post by IronMan on May 27, 2004 19:27:28 GMT -5
Hi guys, I recieved the .100 wire this morning. This is what happened...... after supper I chucked a piece of round and turned it down to .250 for a test run. Made a jig for the wire , looked at the old spring and figured I would need about 5- 6 tpi.The distance between the loops on the other spring are equal to the wire thickness, I was going to gear the lathe to do 6 then 5 and take the best of the 2. That is when the roof caved in...... My chart for the change gears on my Myford does not go below 8 tpi. I was not going to give up without trying to turn the wire into a spring, which I did, passed it in the jig and made turn 2 turns by hand, a little stiff but notting like I thought it would be looking at the wire when I first got it. I then proceeded to turn the rest by hand trying to give it the spacing by eye, and moving the carriage by hand. I managed to make something that looks like a spring. Then I cut the ends and took it off. Looking at it I think that it would be easy enough if I could gear the lathe to the pitch I need. I am not sure but I think I have seen something somewhere on this perticular problem in one of my Model Engineers ? Now to find the solution. The other problem, that I can not resolve just yet and is also important is that perhaps .100 is too thick. I can not exactly compress it more than 1/32 with 2 hands !! If I could at least get a few done and try it out on the trucks I would be able to guage it. But I think perhaps that the .081 would of been the better option. Murphy's law here at work. Ususally when you must make some choices it's never the right one it seems and it costs you more $$ Rolling it was not a problem at least that is something. Well so much for tonights experimentation, not a total failiure, some positive came out, but the negatives hurt. I will try to suss things out in the next few days if it is possible and post my results. Regards, IronMan
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Post by patyoung on May 27, 2004 21:29:11 GMT -5
Hi Ironman, Can't help but smile at your spring rolling experience! I'm glad you were able to get them that tight and not break anything or hurt yourself. I'm guessing that they would have a load capacity of about 100 lbs! which would allow your tender to support 1000 lbs of water, fuel and passengers or you could use them as replacement motorcycle clutch springs! Seriously though, you might still be able to use 2 of them on the back tender truck instead of the recommended 3. Maintenence and installation would be easier. Good luck and let us know what happens. Regards, Pat Y. ;D
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Post by patyoung on May 27, 2004 22:41:08 GMT -5
Another thought, Ironman, Perhaps you can spread out the turns so that there is more space between the turns. That might make it less stiff, but too much space could make it less stable. Pat Y.
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Post by IronMan on May 28, 2004 7:59:18 GMT -5
Hello Pat,
I did a bit of research this morning after a good night sleep and found part of my answer. I found a way to change the quadrant gearing to get the proper tpi I need in Martin CLeeve excelent book " Screwcutting in the Lathe " from the workshop practice series. 40-A-A- 30 should give me 6tpi on my 8tpi leadscrew. I will probably get some .085 wire. I will of course make in a few in .100 but I believe it is not the right size there is not enough compression. I hope to get the chance to make a few this week-end to install them in the truck and see the difference, it will be a few days before the other wire arrives.
Have a nice week- end IronMan ;D
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Post by Climax Builder on May 29, 2004 16:07:48 GMT -5
I have a EXCEL spread sheet program for checking compression spring designs. I made it for checking springs for my Climax.
I have had a debate with my self as to wheither to make it available.
The way it works you have to plug in values for some of the parameters and then it computes the spring. Then you must check the stress level at max load and at solid height. If the stress level exceed the yeld for the material then the spring is underdesigned and you have to play with the wired diameter and etc.
Can I upload this excel file. If so how?
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Post by IronMan on May 29, 2004 17:09:48 GMT -5
Helo Climax Builder, It is verry generous of you to offer to upload the excel file. You can not on this forum, so I created another to compliment this forum for cases like these. Its a Yahoo group here is the url. groups.yahoo.com/group/Builders_of_Kozos_Engines/once you are member go to the files section and follow the instructions to upload, quite easy. Check out the photos section and links. Once again I can say thank you from all of us who are building Kozo's engines. Verry much appreciated. Regards, IronMan ;D
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Post by jimbuchanan on May 29, 2004 20:52:43 GMT -5
Ironman: see if you this will allow you access to the Excel sheet: jambuch.home.insightbb.com/_misc/spring.xlsYou may have to copy this and past it into Internet Explorer. I sent it as a not to myself and I clicked on it in Outlook Express and it opened Internet Explorer which opened EXCEL and gave me access to the spread sheet. Who would thunh. Jim
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Post by IronMan on May 31, 2004 8:03:08 GMT -5
Hello Jim, Thank you for the sheet, I was able to save it to my harddrive no problem. I would like to make it available in the the Yahoo group, which was created for stuff like this. DO you have any objections? Here is the link. groups.yahoo.com/group/Builders_of_Kozos_Engines/ I will try and work things out latter today if I get the chance. When I do I will post the results. Cheers, IronMan ;D
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Post by jimbuchanan on Jun 2, 2004 8:21:20 GMT -5
I have no objections.
I may update the Excel program to add comments. For example the spring stress table list a min and max. Allowable stress is a function of wire diameter. Smaller the wire diameter the higher the allowable stress. Spring index C gives information on the manufacturability and column strength of the spring.
jim
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